What If YOUR Leadership IS the Problem?

Organizations today are facing unprecedented levels of burnout, disengagement, mistrust, and complexity.

So leaders do what they've always been taught to do.

They work harder.
Create new strategies.
Implement new systems.
Increase oversight.
Tighten controls.

Yet the problems persist.

Which raises an uncomfortable question.

What if YOU are the problem?

Not because you're a bad leader.

Not because you're failing.

But because the very leadership habits, assumptions, and behaviors that helped you succeed may now be limiting your organization's ability to thrive.

In this thought-provoking episode of Mainline Executive Coaching ACT, hosts Rich Baron and Maikel Bailey sit down with internationally recognized leadership consultant, executive coach, and author Thom Dennis to discuss his groundbreaking book, Rewilding the Corporate Mind: Rediscovering Nature's Blueprint for Leadership in an Age of Disruption and Division.

As organizations struggle with increasing complexity, uncertainty, burnout, disengagement, and cultural fragmentation, Thom challenges conventional leadership wisdom and invites us to view organizations through a fundamentally different lens—not as machines to be controlled, but as living systems designed to adapt, evolve, and flourish.

Drawing from nature, systems thinking, neuroscience, and decades of leadership development experience, Thom argues that many of today's leadership challenges stem from outdated assumptions rooted in fear, hierarchy, and control. In their place, he proposes a more regenerative approach built on trust, adaptability, connection, and human flourishing.

During this engaging conversation, Rich, Maikel, and Thom explore:

• Why traditional command-and-control leadership models are losing effectiveness
• The hidden costs of over-management and excessive control
• What natural ecosystems can teach us about resilience and adaptability
• How trust, belonging, and psychological safety fuel high performance
• The difference between sustainable leadership and regenerative leadership
• Why leaders must embrace complexity rather than attempt to control it
• Practical ways to "rewild" leadership, culture, and organizational thinking

This episode is not about blaming leaders.

It's about challenging leaders to examine whether the answers they're seeking require a fundamentally different question.

Because before we ask what's wrong with our people, our teams, or our organizations, perhaps we need to ask:

What if YOUR leadership IS the problem?

Thom Dennis joins Rich and Maikel for a fascinating exploration of leadership, culture, resilience, and the future of work—and discover why the future may belong not to the leaders who can control the most, but to those who can create the conditions where people and organizations can naturally thrive.

Contact Thom at: 

thom@serenityinleadership.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomdennis/

https://www.serenityinleadership.com/

Leaders, Lead Well!

Thank you to all of our listeners in over 140 countries and 1,500 cities worldwide, we greatly appreciate your support! We truly hope that what we bring to our listeners will improve your ability as leaders.

Mainline Executive Coaching ACT has been recognized by FeedSpot as one of the top Executive Coaching Podcast in the world based on thousands of podcasts on the web and ranked by traffic, social media, followers & freshness.

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John Mattone Global:                                                                                                          https://johnmattone.com/

Rich Baron:
rbaron@richbaronexecutivecoaching.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/rich-baron/
rich@johnmattone.com

Maikel Bailey:
mbailey@intelligentleadershipec.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/maikelbailey/
https://maikelbailey.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:03

All right. Thanks for joining us today. This is Mainline Executive Coaching. ACT. It's about leaders, it's about your culture. That's what ACT is about and cultural transformation. So we're happy that you're on board with us today. We've got a great guest from across the pond, as we say, Tom Dennis. He's just finished a wonderful book. Exciting, informative, insightful, incredible. And he's going to be sharing a little bit about what he's done in that book and what he his approach to uh corporations and companies and what we need. It seems like it's a breath of fresh air. We're all seem to be struggling for some sense of what's going on in the world today, whether it's politics or business or even our own family sometimes. So this rewilding book that he's got going on here, what a great title that is. He'll give you the full title here, is exciting. And so hang on, be ready for some mentally challenging conversation today. You're gonna walk away with some great goodies here. So let's start out. Tom, give us your 30, 60-second elevator speech and then we'll jump right in.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Thank you, Michael. It's good to be with you and Rich today. Um, so I think the leadership that's got us to where we are today uh doesn't work, and we've got so much evidence of that. So we need a new approach. Uh, we we need to really clear out the barrel and start again looking at what uh leadership means. And I think one of the things that we've done is to lose a sense of where we as the human race sit in relation to nature, and I think we need to honor nature, we need to go back to that and learn from nature as opposed to sort of standing above it. So that's what I bring into organizations, those that really want to look at a new way of being and succeeding.

SPEAKER_04 2:08

Okay, succeeding. Let's start there. Um that's a great great entry point.

SPEAKER_02 2:16

I wanted to start where what got us to here, but but we're I think we're gonna get into that absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 2:22

So there seems to be some different different definitions about succeeding. Some may think we're doing quite successfully in succeeding with where we are now, and there's a lot of people that are saying from what you're indicating that this is not succeeding, we want a different kind of success. So put those two out there. What is that they think they you know we want that seems to be working for some, but the other people over here going, well, that's not quite it at all.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Well, I think one of the well, one the the key measure uh for for most organizations and politicians is about money. How much money are we making? How much money can we make for uh our shareholders? Uh and there's more to life than money. That that might come as a shock to a lot of people, just that by itself. But um in in making all this money, we are destroying a great deal uh of what actually um systemically really matters. So um I I think you know, one example of this, uh I there aren't that many, but there are some examples of this. Well, is Patagonia, the the organization. They make a lot of money. Uh and they give one percent of it to um protecting uh uh the land. Um but they're there they they are not just about making money at any cost. And the thing there is that, and we're really seeing this with AI and the organizations, particularly in the US, who are wielding more and more power, uh, they're doing it at the cost of uh a large percentage of the population. So um this that that's why I sort of go back to nature. You can look at what what are the impacts of what we're we're doing, you you know, just even the the water supplies to to um uh to enable the the infrastructure for AI to function means that all sorts of towns and cities now are uh uh their water's being stolen, and what water they get is is of a rubbish quality. That there are knock-on effects for what um at a superficial level you could say is success. And I I think success needs much more to be defined in terms of uh what is the overall impact of the organization. Are people just being burnt out and uh or being fired in in large quantities because um in the short term we can make more money? Uh that there is there is more to life than that, and there's so much suffering in the world which we've lived with for a long time in the service of mammon. I I I think we really need to rethink what is important.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

I couldn't agree with you more, Tom. One thing you mentioned is about what got us to here, and it's just it's not working. Some of the things that you you you've mentioned, you know, uh and a lot of this fear-based. Even in social media, you know, there's a lot of, oh my, oh my word, you know, the United States is doing this, or or Great Britain's doing this, or whatever is doing that. And so people get get a get scared. There's a lot of fear around that. So it feels like there's there's no more control, no more trust. It's all control, I should say, no more trust, it's all control. It's all fear-based. There's all it feels like a hierarchy. And yeah, when you talk about money, everything it feels like it revolves around money. Not putting back to the those things that truly matter long term for who we are as a people, who we are as a planet, who we are as um, you know, as as society, if you will. And so absolutely. So what's your thoughts? What what got us here? What where what where where do we go off the rails, so to speak?

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Well, that's uh that's a big question.

SPEAKER_02 7:13

That's a that's a big question. Maybe that's two or three podcasts, but that's a big question.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

One of the sort of the milestones for me was I think it's 1911 when uh that guy wrote the book on on management and the science of management and and and uh likened people essentially as as to mechanical cogs in in a in a machine. Uh and that's that was sort of that that underpinned management thinking for well in in some instances, even now it's being taught that way. And uh people are not machines. And actually, organizations are not machines. Organizations can make machines, but they in themselves are actually living systems. So to uh I mean so that's that's if you like a a route which took us down this um it's a very impersonal, largely uncaring um environment where uh you know it the the mindset of well the the organization isn't working right. If it was my m my engine, what would I do? I'd take out a spark plug, throw it away, put another one in, or I'd change a carburetor, or whatever it is. Uh and that was applied to people and the way that organizations were were being run. And of course, at one level, it's actually quite successful, but it has a human toll, it has a cost in uh humanity, really. Uh, and that's worked, uh, as I say, um superficially for quite a long time, but we've now got to the stage where things are moving so fast, things are changing so fast, that that approach doesn't work anymore. And so we have to take a step back. And when we take a step back, we say, well, what are we messing with here? We're messing with human beings, we're messing with living systems, and if we're doing that, we've got to change our mindset uh on how we want to uh run things. And if you look around at the moment, I think you'll you'll you can see both struggling uh for kind of a supremacy of um you know uh who was it? Was it Meta or Facebook announced 8,000 uh people they're getting rid of um this this men's announced this this week? Um some people are saying it's because of AI, some people are just saying it's because we need to save money, and you you have to ask the question these places are actually pretty damn uh profitable. Uh and some people are making a bunch of money. So is that necessary? Um and it the you know I I'm I'm led to this question of um what is enough, and uh how when when you have more than a I don't know what it is, a a sum of money, how is that profiting you and how is it um sucking out of others?

SPEAKER_04 11:04

You know, this debate I think of humanism versus the mechanisms, I think that's something that's been going on from the be from the beginning of time. I think we even talked about in our initial interview. This is something that's always happened. The cost. What's the cost? You know, if in particular when you take a look at the cost of human life, uh the quality of life. Um one time uh a feudal Lord could just go in and get all his so-called uh serfs to rally behind him and war, and they were just so much fun or going against the the next knight or the next lord or whatever it was, and that was just the cost of things. That's just what it was. Um now it's not so blatant, it's not so bloody out there in the field, bodies are laying all over the place, but there still is a cost. And so it seems like there's two completely different value systems that we're addressing here. And one is very, I think, based on scarcity, and the other one is based on abundance. One is based upon you know what it is that I want, the other one's based upon what's best for us all. So in this new age that we're now dealing in, that's moving very quickly, AI and uh the the politics, the the how one area of the world affects the other, it the same day. I mean, just the whole thing of you know, the straight removed. You know, there's this, you know, what happens that day can tell us how much we're gonna be paying at the gas pump that just almost immediately. So when you take a look at this, these dynamics here, I hear what you're talking about as I look at the material that you have. One of the things you talk about is serenity. Serenity and leadership, and getting the alignment going with businesses' objectives and people and their needs, and give us some delving into this whole thing of serenity and leadership.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Yeah, I think that um I want to go back to something you're saying, then I'll go to that. I um you're right that historically speaking, uh we've had a repeating cycle, if you like, of of um of the tough man leads the people, they they they they have a big fight and they've taken over some land. And there uh there have been one or two examples where the leader has then said uh um really actually created an environment of peace. It hasn't happened that much, but it it it has happened. And uh I I I guess what I think we are in history terms right now is we're at a kind of bifurcation. We can go down the way that we've always gone, um, which is we'll have a revolution of some sort, and all the leaders uh are gonna get thrown out, have their heads cut off, either literally or metaphorically. And um, then there'll be another bunch of people who get into um control and they'll do probably somewhat worse. That's what happened with the French Revolution, to what happened with the Russian Revolution. Um, or because we are have got to where we are and we we are educated in perhaps a way that we haven't been before, and some people uh some historians might disagree with me on that. Um, we because we can see that choice, we can actually then say, no, we've done that before. It doesn't actually work. We do have a choice to be different, and to um I would say be grown up, be mature, uh, and and and and and have a sort of command over our ego needs, uh, so that we create a society where everybody in their own way can flourish. Not according to a model that's put out by Facebook, but a model that actually enriches the individual. Now, serenity is is a is a is a is a station on the route in a sense. What I mean is that uh we we we've lived in in a society where uh when we get frightened, as as Richard has said, um that there's so much anxiety around, the natural reaction for people is to turn and say, Oh, who can save me? Somebody uh and and you you you get this in politics, um you know, there's the great attraction of the populist leader, because people say, Oh, that's a strong man, he can lead us, uh, and he can lead us into a place where everything's gonna be great, uh and it isn't right now, and uh that's never gonna work. It's never gonna work now. Another another route is to say, I understand that no one actually can take responsibility for me except for me. I have to do this, and we we this is my belief, we have this wisdom inside us, and so uh the the difficulty is accessing it because it speaks with a very soft voice, and in order to hear it, we need that level of serenity, we need the quiet in order to hear actually what what is the wise route, the wise decision to make. And if we all did that, um there would not be this need for conflict, there would not be this need for uh um one person um being over lording it over another. So serenity um it's a little bit like common sense. It's called common because it's actually quite rare. Um and with s serenity it it sounds easy, but it's it it's well for me it's quite difficult because you know my brain's zinging all the time, and to to just calm things down to the extent where I can just say breathe. And you you know, the even just doing that uh it can can settle the mind. Uh you know, I I've I was frustrated for years and years and years because everyone was sort of looked to me as if they were being really successful in meditating, and I couldn't do it because it I I just had my my head was sort of full of stuff um all the time. And I I've sort of learnt and I've heard it a lot, but sometimes you'd only hear a message when you're ready to hear it, which is um, you know, just just be okay with yourself, and if something comes in, accept it and let it go. And in that so in that place of serenity, all sorts of amazing things can come up, but at their pace, not some other pace.

SPEAKER_04 19:04

Yeah, there's even a section in your book here that you mark breathe as connection to life force. I mean you're getting down to some really nitty-gritty basic stuff there. And so um and I I agree with you. I've heard many others as well say, you know, get back to the breath, which is really interesting. Why don't we do that, Tom? What the heck is wrong with us?

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Well, um, the first the first thing I I would say is that what what one thing that I I've when I heard this uh uh some while ago, I I thought, wow, and that is that all all the ancient traditions they disagree about an awful lot of things, but they agree on one thing, and that is that the breath is incredibly important. Uh so why don't we do it? Um, one, because we're too busy, we're busy, busy, busy doing stuff, doing things, and not allowing um the space just to be. Um my my uh my partner was uh facilitating a uh a two-day off site of the last two days. And on the first, well, in fact, in the pre-interviews, they were saying, um, oh, giving two days is just too much. We we don't have the time for that. And um then as as uh that first day went on. I mean, you need really good facilitation for this, but it you could see that uh people bring in all this sort of anxiety, and I've got I've got to answer the emails, and I've got to make that phone call, and I've they need to hear this, and I've got to be involved in that, and yeah. It's the it's the noise in the head. And then slowly for some, and still in resistance for others, as the day went on, there was this space. But at the end of the day, too, a number of them said I really appreciated the pace, which was far slower than we actually normally live. And the the reason, and I've experienced this experienced this a lot in facilitating um myself, you know, off site, people bring all their angst and them, I've got to do this, I've got to do that. Um, and and you know, when you just stop. For a moment. There's actually an anxiety that comes up and says, Oh my God, what's happening? Nothing's happening, so what's happening? And uh you know your head tends to zoom off in all sorts of directions. But for some people, they begin to say, Oh, you breathe. And in that moment, that's when you get the sort of connection, connection with people, as opposed to uh um, oh, he says something, I don't agree with it, he's a bad person. You know, that all this sort of short-term judgment stuff, as opposed to ah, yeah. That it it allows space for reflection. But we're like we're living life too fast. Uh and it's it's destructive. It's destructive.

SPEAKER_02 23:05

You know, Tom, I uh what you're saying uh it really is reflected in business, it's reflected in corporations, living things too fast. How do we get to that next place? Versus, you know, some of the things you you you talk about is, you know, with what organizations are really living systems, those relationships, those healthy relationships, those things, uh, that emergence emerges from who we are to that, you know, that place you're talking about, that more serenity. I I gotta tell you, one of the biggest things that I despise, and I'll I'll just use that word, is when I hear the term referred to as people, our people are our biggest asset. That drives me insane because you know, assets by definition are something that's owned by the company or used by the company to produce revenue. And they also have a depreciation and an amortization schedule and value attached to an asset. That that by definition drives me insane. Versus kind of what you're talking about is how do we get beyond that mindset to understanding everything we're doing, organizations or living systems made up by people, made up by these healthy relationships, made up by uh this interdependence, if you will. Is that kind of what you what you're referring to here?

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Yeah, I'm I'm recalling those um uh um I think she was a client for for a while in in a in a in a global law firm, and she was working in um uh HR and and uh actually uh DNI, which I know is uh uh something like talking about these days. But um she had been in a meeting and this this lawyer had referred to her. Uh he he he said there's only two types of um people in this business, there's fee earners and fee burners. And I thought, oh ouch. That's that's cruel. Uh and um um the the there's a yeah, the the CEO of Bolt has just uh fired his entire um HR function. Now I know a lot of HR functions are quite um uh controversial um and often for quite good good reasons, but they they do have a function, uh, and it's about looking after the people. That's that's what HR should be about, um, as opposed to just sort of uh all the bureaucracy that organizations surround themselves with. So um uh part of that is just respect, isn't it? Um how do we I'm I'm struggling now because I've I've lost your your original question. I was I was I I still wanted to talk about fee earners and fee burners. Um give it give it to me again, because I I want the linkage.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

Well, I you know, talking about um this idea of developing these healthy relationships, this emergence away from you know maybe the fear-based or the mindset that people are assets.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

That's right, yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

People are assets versus people are our future, or how we, you know, we really should be looking at doing business, developing uh, you know, those relationships. And and even kind of what I'm maybe hearing you go into is this nurturing development, if you will.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

Well, yeah, uh we're in an interesting sort of um moment, aren't we, where uh AI is is is coming out, it's still very, very young. Um, but already lots of organizations are firing people because they think that um the job can be done better uh by a machine. I I mean there are going to be some unintended consequences of that. And certainly in this country, there's a lot of anxiety and fear now because people are coming out of university, they've got huge debts, and they've got no job, uh, and no prospects, actually. So um that that's uh that's that's a problem. Uh, and I suppose it it comes down um to something we've touched before, which is what actually are we in business for? Are we just in it to make money? Because if we are, fine, you know, get rid of the people and uh get AI to do it, and um we'll we'll see we'll see how we get on. Um on the other side of this, if you've got a a purpose, a real purpose for the organization, if you've w worked on that, then um it it's much easier to see where people, human beings, fit into that. Um but uh it it it you know the fundamental question is why are you in business? If the the human ness of it all is irrelevant, I I I don't know what the percentage is, but it's quite high the the the the the payroll in in an organization. Um so uh you know it's easy to make an argument about well, if we can reduce that, we can make more money. Well, hey, of course, if you get rid of all the people, there's not going to be any people who've got any money to buy your product, and so uh that that may be a sort of a short fuse to something that's a little unfortunate.

SPEAKER_02 29:52

Um you hit on you hit on something. I want to I want to go back to something real quick before we we move on, which is uh a very critical piece to what we talk about with organizations is that purpose, that why. And here's here's the thing. And done this several times. You go in and you work with a company, you walk in the front door, you you you see what's going on. A lot of times you'll see maybe a mission statement posted or vision statement posted. But here's the challenge, and the challenge to our listeners is and and anybody out there, what is your purpose? What is the core purpose of the company? What is the why? Is it to make money? Or what was the original purpose for this organization existing or for you existing as a leader? Not your mission, not your vision, but the purpose. And and I'll I'll tell you, nine times out of ten, nine times, and this is from personal experience, these organizations cannot tell you what their purpose is. And if they do know what the purpose is, it's usually only only a couple people that know. That's a critical, I think that's a such a critical piece of what you just said. And I'm sorry to have stopped your your your uh mindset there, but I I had I had to jump on that.

SPEAKER_01 31:25

Yeah. Well, uh proof of the pudding, as they say. Um I um what do I say? I agree with you. Uh it it's uh and I think what's interesting uh uh is that a lot of millennials uh are are approaching work in a very different way, and they're actually being quite picky when uh they're being interviewed uh and saying, well, what what is the purpose of this organization? And what's the evidence of that? How how are your people living that out? Because if if um if if you are great, but if you're not, I don't want to be part of it. Um I don't say all of them because uh uh you know there's an awful lot who just need work. Uh you know, the the the average age of of kids leaving home is just going up and up and up because they can't afford to move out from home and stuff. It it's it's it's desperate, really, the situation in so many ways. Um but I think that where there is a clear purpose, then uh the whole thing flows much, much better. And I'm I'm thinking of the the the chocolate companies. Uh I talk about this in the book. Um there were a number of chocolate companies uh based actually you know where where I am, up in York. And these people like um Roundtree, um he built villages for his work um work people to live in. Uh there are there are there was uh hospitals and uh all sorts. There was a complete life infrastructure around um the people who uh worked in the business. And uh now they've all been token over, I think actually mostly by American companies, and all of that's gone, you know. And and I mean, just to look at Ben and Jerry's and their struggle now um with uh it's Unilever, isn't it? And and Magnum. Um it's very difficult if you want to support Ben and Jerry's uh to get an ice cream these days because they're all owned by Magnum. Uh and yet they're struggling because you know when Ben and Jerry went in with, I think it was Unilever, they they um they said, listen, this is what we believe in. We really believe in something here. So if you buy us out, then you've got to say, we'll we'll continue that. And there was all sorts of beautiful words at the beginning, and now it's all gone out the window. Uh and you see that, I mean, just in the in the in the um the making of chocolate now, all the big chocolate makers are making synthetic chocolate because cocoa is is very expensive, so that um there's virtually no cocoa solids in any chocolate. It's all synthetic stuff that they've done.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

That sounds disturbing, quite frankly. I just gotta say that.

SPEAKER_04 35:03

Do you know Reese's peanut? You know, you remember Reese's peanut bars or those little cups and stuff that is now has no chocolate in it and it has no peanut butter.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Yeah, well, because it's cheaper. That's why.

SPEAKER_03 35:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

Uh, and and so again, we get back to this thing about what is your purpose, and if it's to make the most money, uh, then you you you will do whatever is necessary. And sort of the the fact that you might actually be poisoning people long term with all these sort of things that you're making, actually doesn't it's not in the equation. So um these are these are empty purposes that are are being expressed.

SPEAKER_04 35:59

So one of the things that I see again in your material here that um that I find really interesting, and we say this all the time, but in businesses and organizations and politics, but we don't really mean it. We obviously don't mean it. And it's the idea of being able to have a culture where we value truth, tell you the truth, without any kind of fear of retribution. We say that all the time, but we don't mean that at all.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

No. No. And uh again, I I mean, you're you're you're seeing it uh the the dare I say this, we're seeing it being lived out in the US right now with the retribution that's coming from the White House. Uh and it it's um I think one of the things that uh struck me a while back was um when when Obama made some comments about the uh the election in in the UK, uh, and everyone stood on the high, all these politicians. How dare he! He's an American, he's got nothing to do with the the the British um election, blah, blah, blah. And then I've heard the reverse said about Brits talking about American uh elections. But by golly, it is our business because what comes out of the White House affects the entire world. It really does. I mean, you've got the power, not we we can't. We just sit there and say, Oh, for God's sake, please make a decent decision, because we're we are gonna carry the can almost as much as you are, and in many instances, more. So um the the there is this complete lack of respect, you know, for people. Uh I wanted to say one thing though. You you know, you talked about the living system. Um, and I I I I facilitated um an off site not that long ago in Germany, and um you know, I don't know how familiar you are with constellations as a as a process, um, but there's a new guy who was in charge um of uh uh one of the big divisions in this sort of multinational company. And this guy was a humanist. He was a real guy, he cared, um, he really tried to involve people in decisions. Uh um he was really interested in the people, he was interested in the impacts of his decisions and the leadership team's decisions on the business and the people and so on. Now, his predecessor had been completely opposite. He'd been a real bulldozer, a bully, um, ego-driven. Um uh and uh what he'd done, because he was there quite a while, was create this culture of um people um sort of when the when the boss sneezes, everyone goes, they they they react. Uh and um I I I constellated this and I I just said right, everybody put yourself where you are, where you think you are, in relation to each other. Um, it's kind of sculpt, you might say. And what happened was the the C CEO, the the lead guy ended up standing facing forward, nobody in front of him, and everybody behind him, and there was a jocking opposition of everybody behind him. And and you know, I I said to him, Do you feel a bit lonely? And he said, I do, and what's more, I don't know what's going on behind me. I can't see. And I said, Well, where do you want people? He said, Oh, I want them around me. I want I I want to be part of something, not just exposed like this. And it was an extraordinary demonstration of a living system, um, just in a simple exercise. Uh, and it was really revealing to him that he he needed to take them on a journey from the culture that had been created by his predecessor into something more healthy and uh in where there was in interoperability, if you like, and and community and communication, because none of that was going on. So, yeah. So that was a sort of perhaps a non-sequitur, but it goes back to something that Rich was saying uh earlier. Um when you see things as a living system, it it it you you get all sorts of clues about how it's working and how it could work better.

SPEAKER_04 41:05

So let's let's let's focus in on something here that I think will help you. Help us understand this wonderful book that you've written here, rewi Rewilding the Corporate Mind. If somebody saw your book, the cover's lovely, the the name, the title is intriguing. And if somebody came up to you and said, Tom, this is a real work. It's got 400 pages in it, it's obviously well thought out. I just opened the book and it's real well written. Tom, tell me, I'm in business and work for a corporation, it could be large, small, medium. Tell me why I should read this book. And at the end of that, what do you believe that you you hope that I will walk away? That I will now have a an a notion of what I must change in my organization for the best.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

I've just taken my iP um iPhone out. I'm I'm recording this now because I want to know what I say in answer to your question. Ah the the the book doesn't give you solutions. I um I uh I don't have um I don't aspire to that. What it does is look at organizations uh from lots of through lots of different lenses, and it says what is it in this bit that resonates with you? What is it that actually speaks to you? You know, if you're in that moment of serenity, then what what what are you hearing? What is that arousing in you that could open a door to you being a better leader, a better businessman, indeed a better human being, dare I said. So um that there are a whole series of different lenses, and uh I I don't know which one of those or several of them are going to be the ones that open something in you. And actually, when I when I got the first Amazon delivery of the books, I did a a reel on on Instagram and LinkedIn and that. And I I had this thing of me opening the box, and I pick out the first book, and I I said, you know, this is amazing, blah, blah, blah. And then I said, actually, I've just started reading it again, and it's really Interesting. And it's like I I wasn't you know, I I was actually sort of saying, really, I I mean I'm seeing things in here, and it's making me think in in particular ways. So this book is a gift to open your thinking to becoming a uh uh perhaps a more complete uh human being with um different uh views, different you know, when you when you're about to do something, it might something in you might say, hang on a minute, is there another way? Could you do that another way? Um so it's it's a this is sounds highfalutin, but it it's it's like a it's a soul-opening um opportunity, and I can't say exactly what it's gonna do for each person, and I do say it's probably going to be different each time you you read it. It's got lots of questions in it, and the ones that I think make you think.

SPEAKER_04 45:17

You know, what you just said there, and I and I I think that's very accurate from what it is I've I've gleaned from what our discussions and what you've written there that it asks more questions than perhaps that it really answers. Because it reminds me of uh uh quote by John Wooden, uh, who is in America, you see he was a basketball coach at UCLA. He was at the time the most winning coach ever in basketball. It's just a short little thing. He wrote, It's what we learn after we know it all that counts. Yeah, yeah. And your book kind of reminds me of that the idea of well, maybe not. Maybe you don't know how. And there's a lot more to explore in a lot of different directions, and that uh this book is sounds like it's really a journey with many, many pathways.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

Yeah, I and you know, a different quote. Um I uh you know, I think several people have said this, but it's the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know. And um, so it it really is sort of designed to open open your mind. And and certainly, I mean, a couple of the people who reviewed the book all said to me, Thank you. Uh, because I was thanking them for having read it and so said some nice words about it. And they said, they each said, I learned a lot.

SPEAKER_04 46:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

And that's cool. Um and you know, I I loved some of the things like you know, the way that Anthony Gaudi built uh designed the Sagrada de Familia in in Barcelona, and and the and the way he he he created um supports for the for the the roof and the ceilings uh by inverting um what a tree would look like. And um the the air conditioning there and is is not mechanical at all. It's just the way it's designed conditions the air by um creating flows of of air. And that was all based on um termite mounds and how termites keep their mounds, you know. It's like if if only we'd look at nature and honor it and respect it and say, Nature, what can you what can you what can you teach me? If we go into this, if we let go of our arrogance and we bring a humility, there's so much we can learn. And you know, the whole point about rewilding is let nature get and let nature lead on this. The moment we interfere with nature, we mess it up. We might make money out of it, but that's short term. Good point.

SPEAKER_04 48:22

Tom, how can they get a hold of you? How can they get a hold of your book? They want to bring you in as a consultant, how do they do that? They want to pick up the book, where do they go?

SPEAKER_01 48:32

Thank you. Um, well, the the the book is available um on Amazon. Uh it's uh there's a hardback, a softback, and a Kindle. Uh if you object to buying things from Amazon, and I I do come across quite a few people who now say, I won't buy anything from Amazon, you can go to your local bookstore and ask them to stock the book because it is available through bookstores as well through a a different route. Uh, and for those that uh like the idea, I'd really encourage you to go to your bookstore and ask them to stock it, even if you don't buy it, because I'd love people to have sort of see it and and to get get the word out. Um I'm on LinkedIn. Um and uh my name's Tom with an H, Tom uh Dennis T-E-N-N-I-S. And uh you know, my email's tom at uh Serenityinleadership.com. And uh I'm on Instagram, Tom Dennis Executive Coach, which is an awfully long thing, but you know, just look for Tom Dennis. Aren't there many of them? There's only two, I think. Um uh and uh um I'd love to hear from people. You know, I'd love to hear what people sort of oh, that was a load of rubbish. I I don't agree with that. Well, tell me. I'd I'd love to know, I'd love to hear, I'd love to learn, you know. Um, I I I I speak as I see it, but I don't claim to be right in everything. I just speak a little bit passionately about what I believe in.

SPEAKER_04 50:10

Curious and passion, great combination.

SPEAKER_02 50:13

Absolutely. Tom, thank you so much uh for being with us today. Um, if you want to get a hold of Michael, Michael Bailey, M-A-I-K-E-L-Bailey.com, uh you can find him on his website. You can find Michael on LinkedIn as well. Uh, Rich Barron, uh, you can find me at Rich Baron Executive Coaching. You can find me at uh on LinkedIn. You can also find us on the John Matone Global website and uh learn a lot about what it is that we do. And just as Tom said, we encourage you to reach out. Let's have a conversation. That's you know, we'd love to hear back from you, and that is uh really why we're here. Um, again, Michael, uh any shout-outs today?

SPEAKER_04 50:59

Before we do, I just want to do a little quick endorsement here with Don. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's he's a fascinating individual, fascinating life, a fascinating reader. You you I'll guarantee you, you pick that book up and uh engage him at that level of challenge that he will bring to you in that book. Uh, you will walk away richer and wiser with more curiosity and more questions about what it is that you can do for your company as a leader and also even your community. I'll guarantee you that's what you'll walk away with. Let's take a look at here. Um I'm just looking at uh it's been a while since we've looked at, we had a lot of new people. Here, I don't even know where this is at. Van Loos Capital Region. I don't even know where that's at. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_02 51:51

Yes, uh, and wherever you're at, thank you. That's wherever you're at. Yeah, wherever that that's located. Uh, I saw an Iron City, Iron City, Michigan, Iron River, Michigan. Uh, forgive me. Iron River, Michigan. That's that's a new one. Regardless, thank you to all our listeners. And you know, a quick shout out to Feed Spot, who uh, you know, kind of help us help us along the way here. And uh again, at the end of this uh another episode of Main Line Executive Coaching Act, quick reminder just to take care of each other. You know, that's what leaders do, that's what servant leaders do. You know, we we we watch out for each other, we take take care of each other, and we're all in this all in the same boat together, whether you you agree with that or not, it's it really is the truth. We impact everything we do, impacts each other. So again, uh thank you for your time and Michael.

SPEAKER_04 52:52

Leaders lead well. Thank you both. Thank you both. Thank you, Tom. Thank you.