The AI Leadership Trap: Why Great Companies Are Confusing Efficiency with Leadership

Artificial intelligence is transforming business at an unprecedented pace—but is leadership evolving with it?

This conversation isn't about the technology itself. It's about what AI reveals in leadership. Discover why trust, character, emotional leadership, and organizational culture will matter more—not less—in an AI-driven future.

If you're a leader navigating change, this episode will challenge you to think beyond automation and focus on what truly differentiates exceptional organizations: the people who lead them.

In this episode of Mainline Executive Coaching ACT, Rich and Maikel explore one of today's most pressing leadership questions: Are organizations using AI to empower people, or simply to maximize efficiency?

Leaders, Lead Well!

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John Mattone Global:                                                                                                          https://johnmattone.com/

Rich Baron:
rbaron@richbaronexecutivecoaching.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/rich-baron/
rich@johnmattone.com

Maikel Bailey:
mbailey@intelligentleadershipec.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/maikelbailey/
https://maikelbailey.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 1:09

Welcome aboard. You are the right place at the right time, and all for the right reasons. This is mainline executive coaching, ACT. ACT, by golly, what's ACT? Well, it means act, right? Obviously, act, action. Leaders, are you acting? Are you pretending? Are you really in action? But it also stands for an cultural transformation. We are now experiencing an amazing opportunity, an amazing thing that's going on in every culture and every business around the world. It is called, as you know, no news AI, artificial intelligence. I'm here with my partner, Rich Barron. I'm Michael Bailey. We are on this and we're going to discuss it. Let's go. Rich, AI. What's going on in that and leadership?

SPEAKER_01 1:56

It's everywhere. AI is everywhere. I think it it dominates uh uh you know every question that people have about their organization out there, somehow AI gets brought into the conversation, gets brought into the equation. And and it's interesting that we're talking about efficiency is the future, right? We're hearing this. Efficiency is if is the future. But I want to challenge that because efficiency has always been the question. How do we become more efficient at what it is that we do? And so, you know, we we see companies investing billions of dollars into AI. They're restructuring their facilities, they're restructuring their workforce, all these big organizational changes. And, you know, for the organizations, you know, efficiency is a future. This is what's going to make us more efficient, AI. AI is the answer we've been looking for. But for the employees, it's a completely different concept. Means I'm losing my job, means I'm being replaced, means that what I have spent years learning to do and learning to become, and maybe years in education and years of experience are now being replaced. And it's a completely different message that organizations are thinking that they have to be, but you know, what about the employees? And in reality, is it really technology and AI that's the problem?

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Yeah. I mean, if you take a look at this notion here about new technology, things that are changing. I mean, we we talked about this just for a moment. You can go back to the Middle Ages when they were now organizing the world in a different way. They were setting up kings and noblemen, and if you went to battle and you did well with the king, he would allot you some land. You now would become an earl or a duke or a lord or something like that. And so that reward was you now have the land. You have everything on the land. And at some point it moved from people on the land to now you, the the serfs, the peasants now are part of the land, which means they belong to the lord or the nobleman or whoever it was. And now that lord or nobleman, he could decide pretty much what's what's how are they gonna how is he gonna treat the people there? Is he gonna treat them like dogs or is he gonna treat them with respect? As a matter of fact, it took hundreds of years to get out of that. It did. Even in the industrial age, you know, they'd have kids working 12 hours a day making needles or matches or or buttons or whatever. 12 hours a day, a little kid doing that kind of stuff, day after day, seven days a week. What's what's with that? But those people that ran the businesses, they were living high. They lived in the big big homes, they had the servants, they had all the other stuff. Yeah, it's a simple thing that we're taking a look at here and see it time and time again. Who is going to benefit by the change? By the change.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Yeah, and who and in reality, too, who is not benefiting by that change?

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Yeah, who will pay the price?

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Who's gonna pay the price? And I don't think it's who we think it is. I don't think who's gonna pay the price in the end is is the the real fear around what we're doing. I and honestly, Michael, it is it is it it raises a question. Is technology becoming more valuable than the people who built the organization to begin with?

SPEAKER_00 6:06

That's a great question. And is technology the enemy?

SPEAKER_01 6:13

You know, I I don't think it is. I I think here's the thing. I don't believe that technology has ever been the problem. It isn't. You know, and I think there's there's a lot of examples here that we can probably give um to make an a distinction. Um AI is not the enemy. It's it's not the enemy. Many people are viewing it as the enemy. But AI is a tool. It's a simple tool. The computer were was a tool, it wasn't the enemy. The internet is not the enemy. Assembly lines aren't the enemy. Steam locomotives weren't the enemy. You know, we talked a lot about steam locomotives on on, you know, we based a lot about that technology. And and if you just look at that technology from steam locomotives, it's uh amazing, amazing technology that went into that. And it it changed the what the landscape of the world, literally.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Yeah, it did, didn't it? Cars and automobiles. I mean, yes, there's the buggy whip makers that went out of business as the cars became more and more popular, more and more fashionable, and industry went the way of the world, but it also opened up a whole new area, many areas actually, yeah, for the support and the making of automobiles. Oh, there is a whole new industry supporting industry that industry of auto automobile making. Oh, absolutely. So that that was that became a huge thing. I think the thing that's about AI that's a little bit different is this. It is so it seems so omniscent, it's so omnipresent. It seems to see it almost seems uh informidable in what it does. And it's and again, it's just it's like pops up everywhere you go. And that's and we don't understand it. And it's got some great things about it, but it's gonna be a while for us to really get our heads around this whole thing. But in the meantime, when we look at leadership and AI, what is the message that we want? Let's start out. What are the what are the questions we want those leaders out there to start asking themselves in regards to how are you going to be adjusting to the changes so that it really is an ad and a multiplier for your for your business uh rather than something that becomes a takeaway for many people?

SPEAKER_01 8:49

I think a big issue around this um is whether or not the leadership of the organizations are allowing or creating fear around a tool. Are they allowing fear to creep in?

SPEAKER_00 9:07

Some of the things that's that's exploiting it then.

SPEAKER_01 9:10

That's exploiting it, absolutely. Um, you know, here's some other things. You know, how many people are you gonna replace with AI? How many, you know, how how why is AI more valuable than your people? And then if we start looking at maybe short-term financial gains, is AI gonna create long-term or short-term financial gains? And is that short-term financial gain worth the trust that you're eroding in your organization? Is it worth the engagement? Is it worth the loyalty? And we know from experience that how long it takes to build those things versus plugging AI in as a tool.

SPEAKER_00 10:00

That's right. You brought up earlier before we got on the podcast here today, you brought up uh the example of Henry Ford in the assembly line. Oh, let's take a look at that. There's just some great things in there that that I think would be enlightening and helpful to our audience. What about that situation?

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Uh here's the thing. And let's go back a hundred years ago, and it everybody knows the name Henry Ford. He automated or changed the face of manufacturing forever. And he put into play this assembly line. What are we gonna do? And so here's the thing: if you go back to when we we were putting in this assembly line, there was a lot of skepticism. Before that, you know, people would build the skills and talents, they would could build a whole motor by themselves. And that's kind of what they did. They built an entire motor or they built an entire car or all of these things that you know they were skilled at. And so people started to think it's gonna eliminate all these skilled craftsm, uh, you know, craftsmanship. It's gonna replace workers with automation, we're gonna dehumanize what it is that we're we're making, we're gonna destroy livelihoods. That was the skepticism all around Henry Ford and the assembly line. And so now if you if you think about it, you you had guys that were building motors and stuff, and now we're switching this assembly line, they might be putting two bolts in or one piece, sticking one piece on the car or on the motor all day long, eight hours a day. Eight hours a day. And so what happened is efficiency exploded. It absolutely exploded. And by doing so, but that that by you know, that efficiency exploding, what happened is we saw the productivity increased, right? But the turnover became catastrophic. It was huge. People were leaving. They couldn't stand the fact that I went from this skilled craftsman that I had spent however many years learning to be, to someone that was just going to be, you know, putting uh a widget on whatever that is.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

Yeah, when they were the craftsman, when they were the person that really had this level of skill of building something that was very quite complicated, really quite interesting, really quite magnificent, such as a as an engine there, and now they're reduced to just a couple of bolts. It wasn't just what they were doing, what they lost was their sense of purpose. And there's a big thing about that. That's what they found. Like they lost their sense of purpose. That's why there's this 300% turnover every year. You're having to plan on here, I'm gonna place this one in you know, four or five months, and so on and so on. Yeah. So purpose, they had to find another way to create purpose so that people would stick around. Now, here's the whole thing. Think about this. Some bosses, some businesses have, well, if you don't want to be here, we'll get somebody else. I can always find somebody else to take your place. Okay. Uh Henry Ford did not go that way. No, he didn't cost the money. You know, the realization of you know how much it takes to train somebody, on and on and on. So instead of putting his value singularly into the production line, he did something very interesting.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

He did. He did. And instead of trying to squeeze more out of the workers that were still there, he doubled their wages.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

He doubled their wages to five dollars a day. And everybody at the time thought that was nuts. How can you afford to do that? Everybody thought he lost his mind. But what Ford did, if if you you go back and read through some of this, what he did is something that a lot of people still struggle with today. Leaders, we and we talk about this all the time. Not only did he create um more efficiency to technology, which is that's the technology created the efficiency, right? Right. It helped the people become more efficient. But what he truly understand is that leadership creates commitment.

SPEAKER_00 15:02

It does.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

It creates commitment. The technology increased efficiency, but the leadership and the understanding on how to use that technology to become more efficient is what created the commitment. And in many ways, we look back at organizational culture. How do you improve organizational culture? You know, and this is kind of an early example. You know, some people do that now just thinking they're gonna throw money at the problem and it's gonna be fixed. But it was more than that. I want you to be productive, I want you to stay here, I want to help you become more efficient, so I'm gonna double your wages. And guess what happened? Ford's output exploded. It exploded.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Yeah. He created an environment of an of abundance. Abundance, uh, he did, yes. As an rather than cutting down, maybe I'm I'm expendable, maybe I won't be around here next month or next year, which is all scarcity mentality. He created a culture of abundance, and with that culture of abundance, very smartly, what he did was he made cars, many, many cars more than anybody else was doing, but he also paid his people so they could buy them. His workers became his customers, that's abundance.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Yes, so he not only did he keep the people around, reduce the turnover, he had to actually increase the amount of people because he got more efficient, that's right, and more assembly lines, and people started to see this. Wow, if Ford can do this, so can we. Yeah, and manufacturing changed, it changed globally from that point on.

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Yeah, suddenly your neighbors got a car. Yeah, how did that happen? I thought you just worked in a factory, yeah, and then somebody else has a car, and somebody else now you're seeing all these cars being put out. People can buy the cars because of being paid better, rather than you know, seeing how much you can not pay them, just scrimping them down, just barely getting them to hang on. This is this is the revolution of it, wasn't just about changing how things were made and efficiency and all that, it's how they created greater value for everyone, and everyone prospered because of it.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Oh, absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

So, what's it going to take for people in leadership positions today working with AI, thinking about how can I make my business more efficient? And yet, as I do that, I'm looking at reducing the people, the number of people that I have in my company. That's kind of that scarcity self-preservation kind of a thing. We were just talking about this a moment ago. Listening to a surgeon on a podcast, Mark McLaughlin, I think his name is. Yeah. This is this is very interesting, and it ties into what we're doing here with the with the leadership folks. This man is like a renowned brain surgeon. He's he's got a book out, I can't remember what it was, but it's is he's really he knows his stuff really, really well. And um, in terms of how to be successful, how to handle different kinds of challenges and changes and so on. And uh the interviewer asked him this question what do you do when you make a mistake? How do you adjust when you made a mistake? How do you adjust so that you don't get caught up into you're not all, oh no, you know, anxious and all that. He and this mark said, let me give you an example. I was doing an operation on a child, operating on their brain, and we we had uh opened his skull up, I mean opened up his head, so now his skull was exposed, and we were drilling, we drilled into his head, and now I was going to insert a scope. I was looking for something through the scope to find out what I needed exactly to fix. Well, this time as he inserted the scope, it started bleeding profusely. And now he said, What's the natural reaction? He said, Your natural reaction, your first reaction is almost always wrong. Your first reaction would be to pull that scope out. And if you did this, you'd have blood spurting all over the place. Let's analyze what our possibilities, our options are instead. And he brought that into the situation here of change always creates the opportunity for a choice. It can be self-survival, which in this case is about pull this out, but then you're gonna kill the kid, or it can be what's gonna be the best thing for everyone. That slowing down, that pausing to take a look at and not just react for self-preservation, self-survival is the difference between the great leader and the leader who is just in it for themselves. Yes. So as we're taking a look at this, instead of just reacting, oh da-da-da-da-da for me, me, me, me, me. Leaders, slow it down. AI wants you to hurry it up. But guess what? You're not AI, you're a human being. Human beings don't work like AI. We're not expected to be all that do all the calculations and formulations and all the programming that AI does. Just like we're not expected to be able to run 120 miles an hour like a fast car can go. That's not expected of us. They're the tool. We're the inventor, we're the user.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Yeah. Here's the interesting thing about efficiency, Michael. And you know, I've spent my life in manufacturing and you know, medical device and lean and six stigma, all you know, name it. I I spend it there. The biggest thing we try to do is become more efficient, right? Continuous improvement. How do we eliminate waste? How do we do all these things? Well, you know, there's a lot of ways to measure that. But the problem is here. When when people start measuring success only through spreadsheets, only through numbers, okay, dashboards, quarterly earnings, all these other things based on how implementing this technology is going to help us. The most important part of your company starts to dwindle. And when we talk about waste, the biggest waste in any company, any company out there, no bar none, is the people's time, energy, and talent. People. People. And when you start to replace people with spreadsheets, quarterly earnings, dashboards, dashboards, technology, you're you're it's you're going to be losing some things that really are irreplaceable. And because it's the people that create the innovation around technology. It's the people that create engagement around technology. When you start paying more attention to AI and this other technology, trust starts to go away. Innovation starts to slow down. And if companies are more interested in simply implementing technology versus making sure their employees are trained, and how do we pivot? How do we grow? How do they grow using this technology with technology to make us a better company? That's where leadership starts to miss the point.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

Angle on it. Roy Overson, great musician. He's passed on now, but an amazing, amazing musician. You listen to his music. It was really very different. It was very original and all that kind of stuff. But I remember watching him, and I think we've talked about this big jam they had with a bunch of other musicians that came to, I think it was someplace down in Louisiana. I think that's where they went. I think that's where they went. In fact, you talked about you knew about this jam and you could have gone to it or something and didn't know for whatever reason.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

I got to see Roy, matter of fact, when I was in Nashville, right before he passed away. Um this uh kind of a showcase that they did. And you being a young musician, uh, there didn't really appreciate what I was seeing. Yeah, yeah, what I uh I got to witness. Yeah. But I know what you're talking about. I I'm I was very aware of it, yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:59

And so they got to this one it was uh pretty woman. They were doing jamming on pretty woman. Yeah, and he had several, you know, top-ranking guitarists on stage with them, right? And it was interesting when they got to the part where they're now, you know, they're just jamming, just doing that improvisational stuff. And every time one of the guitarists took over and they had them highlight for a moment, it was interesting how they slowed it down. They got into it slow, yeah, and then they picked it up, and then they did their thing, and then they got out, and then the next guy got in and did it slow and picked it up, and so on and so forth. They don't hurry up, they're they're in the process of discovery of what's going on. I know people that work on stage, and one of the things is that if you're on stage doing a live kind of a thing and you're doing comedy and it's not going so well, the the self-preservation is to hurry up what you're doing, whether it's a particular act or it's a particular joke or it's the scene that you're in, that the temptation is to hurry it up. But the smart comedians, they slow it down, they start slowing it down to bring the to bring the audience in. And they'll actually say, you'll actually see them sometimes, just stand there looking at them. Huh? How about that? Didn't like that, did you? And so they'll begin this whole thing of analyzing in the moment what's not working. What if we did that? What if more uh leaders, as they took a look at stuff, instead of speeding up, which A to I does, is they started slowing it down and taking a harder, deeper look at what's it gonna do for my company, for my team, for my employees, if they slowed it down. Again, you had that reference about that one fellow that you meant. If you're not doing AI in six months now, you won't have a job. What does that say to everybody? If you better hurry up and get on the bandwagon, right, or you'd be left behind. Doesn't seem like the whole lot of thinking that goes on with that. It seems like that's all about self-preservation.

SPEAKER_01 26:02

No, and it becomes self-preservation, absolutely. Here's the the secret technology's not going away. It's gonna continually and continually change who we are, it's gonna make us more efficient, more capable of things. The one thing that both leaders and employees alike, and we talk about we we work a lot with some of these folks uh as job coaches and have for a long time. One of the things we constantly tell them is you need to continually reinvent yourself and take an inventory of your skills and talents. Organizations need to do the same. What is the inventory of the skills and talents that we have here? And how do we improve those and give them more skills and talents that are gonna help us keep up with the technology? Because in the end, it's the people who are gonna make your organization or break your organization.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

I think that's a brilliant observation. And I'm sure there are those people that are using AI to look at those very kinds of questions. You know, what where are we going with this? What do they how do how do we anticipate the changes and the talents necessary that to meet the future, to move into the future? That's what they're doing. And if you think of it that way, you're looping in your people, yeah, rather than looping your people out.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Yeah. You know, that's that's an important concept, Michael. How do you bring your people into this? How do you make sure that they are looped in, they're engaged, they're um up to date on communication with the company. I I was able to give a keynote um for a group of people in Bucharest, Romania, on AI and leadership. Here's the one thing that we know for certain AI will never replace leadership. AI will never replace coaching. It just simply won't, because there is more involved than simply asking a question and hoping for an answer or getting an answer. Technology is gonna be great and always has been to inform our decisions, inform how we work, inform what the future is gonna be like. But the decisions themselves have to be human. They have to be human, and it has to be around human-based function. Values. It has to be around values, it has to be around empathy, it's gotta be around critical thinking skills, it's gotta be around character. Here's the thing, AI doesn't have character. You might think it does, but there is really no empathy there because it's it's not real. It's I mean, let's let's face it. Right. And that others might argue with me on that on that point, and you know, that's not that's not what we're talking about here. But is there any real vision or judgment or ethics or trust? Do you you know, and here's one of the things that I I people are having conversations with their computers now. Conversations. Why? And that's you know, that's that's a question I have is is why are we doing that? Because the human element is getting taken out of the picture more and more, even in our homes, even uh with our own computers.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

You know, it's funny that you you you bring that up. We have politicians in the United States, there's a few of them that just they when they they respond to a situation, they create these word salads that don't mean anything. They're just talking, you know. Yeah, it's just pure nonsense. And there's not much difference in some ways between those kind of you know, limited brain-functioning politicians that do these word salads, and when you take a look, what AI does, AI goes and looks at word collections. What words are around this particular word or about this particular query? Starts looking at all this stuff and has access to just scans and scans of information. But when you talk about, you know, having a conversation, all it's doing is looking at your words and looking at another collection of words to respond. It just does it really fast, so it seems like it's a spontaneous conversation, but they're just just looking at words and coming up with responses. That's all that's really going on.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

This reminds you of something, Michael. I gotta bring this up because there's a there was an Italian pop star singer, okay? And his name was Adriano Celentano. I can I think that's how you pronounce it. But he relate he released uh a song in 1972 that was gibberish. I remember that. It was gibberish. He just wanted to make a song that sounded like English. Yeah, and so it it there was there was nonsense, there was nothing in there, but it sounded like English, and it became a huge hit to those people who didn't speak English.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

And it was an experiment, yeah. Yeah, and and yeah, his his whole idea behind that is if I make a song that sounds like English, doesn't matter because everybody's gonna love it, and it worked.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

It was a great beat, a great tune.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

Yeah, it was. So is AI the same thing in some ways?

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Well, do do we do dare do we dare say that in public?

SPEAKER_01 32:14

No, I don't even dare to say that in front of my computer anymore. I don't talk to my computer anymore. Little let alone Alexa, who I know is listening to me, but yeah, uh here's the thing now. Yeah, absolutely. Here's the thing technology is never ever going to inspire someone to be the best version of themselves. It's not that is a purely leadership function with organizations and with people. You have to be able to inspire your the people in your company and your company itself to become the very best version that it can be. That's not gonna happen if you're replacing people.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

No, it's not. And it's that human being-to-human being connection that makes that difference, the ability to look at somebody, see what's going on, their eye, their face, their body, the tone of their voice, how they're responding, how they are normally, and then how they change under pressure, under stress, and knowing that, and knowing that for yourself, how you're dealing with those kinds of things. Machines can do the measurements, but they cannot do the adjustments in a way that connects, makes those connections deeper, more meaningful, more significant, that helps everybody in this whole thing that we're on, this planet earth thing, you know, that we really are in it together. This is not about separating. No, we see a lot of going on now. So much of what we see now going on in the world is the result of really bad leadership. It doesn't have to be this way. It really doesn't. So when you take a look, guys and gals who've been listening today at AI, yourself, your situation, your organization, your teams, the people that you work with, what are you going to choose? How are you going to take on the AI challenge? How are you going to take on the situation? Is it about efficiency? Well, some degree, yes, but it's more about the people that you work with every day and their lives and your lives.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

And you know, I I would even argue along with that, Michael, that AI is not the future. Leadership is. Leadership is becoming even more and more critical as we implement these this this new technology, which is amazing. Don't get me wrong, it's amazing. But the people the human element is becoming more and more critical as that gets employed.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

I think you're absolutely right. And I think the answer to that is that it is the answer, and it always has been the answer. That's what it's always been.

SPEAKER_01 35:03

And Henry Ford proved that. That's right. And Henry Ford proved proved that. We have to look back at him for that example.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

And there's great leaders out there every day that are proving the same principles again and again and again. Oh, absolutely. And the thing that's really interesting about that, Rich, the difference is becoming more and more obvious all the time.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Yes, it is. Yeah, that gap is widening.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Yeah, it is.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

All right. So let's wrap this up.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

So if you want to get a hold of us, Michael Bailey, uh M-A-I-K-E-L Bailey.com, Michael Bailey.com, uh LinkedIn. Um look for him on LinkedIn. You can also go on to um where we have our information on Buzz Sprout and our websites and stuff to get that information how to contact us. Uh Rick Baron, executive coaching. Um, you can find me uh on the John Matone Global website, same as Michael, uh, about our podcast. And uh let's have a conversation, you know. You know, don't talk to your computer anymore. Just call us up. You know, we can have a real conversation.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

Yeah. Yeah, ours will be unexpected, not programmed.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Yeah. You know, I I gotta tell you, as we were talking here, Michael, Alexa. I've got an Alexa in you know my office, it just started talking to me. It started talking to me about skills and talents and and artificial intelligence. And then I don't know, I had to mute my mic for just a minute to tell it to stop. That is not real, it's not a real conversation. We can have real conversations.

SPEAKER_00 36:48

Yeah, yeah. A lot more interesting and a lot more fun. Oh, a lot more chance. Do you have a do you have a shout-out? I found one. Yeah, who do you who do you got? I've got one from uh Latvia. Oh Latvia. And I I don't know the city, I don't know how to say the pronunciation. I'm gonna slide it so no. Klapida. I think it is a it is a port on the Black Sea. I think it may be the only port, seaport that that uh Latvia has. But it is a beautiful little city. It's just uh the the town, the the buildings, and everything. It just looks like a charming place to be, right there on the Baltic Sea. So thanks for tuning in, Latvia. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:33

You know, that would be right on the Baltic Sea. That kind of sounds nice right now. Islamabad. I know we've we've talked about them before, but they're you know, someone who I'm seeing here. Um Denver, Colorado. Welcome, Denver. It's not too far from us. Great city.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

It's not, it's very, it's very true. So keep spreading the word, folks. We do it for you. We hope that it's satisfying and it helps you in your leadership, in your leadership development, and that it will help you also in your culture. That's why we're doing this.

SPEAKER_01 38:11

Yeah, and uh we'll see you again next time. And until then, you know, take care of each other. That's what it's about.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

That's right. And leaders lead well, with or without AI.